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On Having Fun: Interviewing Bernie DeKoven

By Michael C. Gilbert, August 2001
 

Bernie DeKoven is a charming, intelligent, and creative man, who has contributed a great deal to two fields that are of personal interest to me.

The first field is that of support for the collaborative work of groups. Bernie has been online since 1981 and it's clear that this has contributed to his work on collaboration. He coined the term "technography" in 1984 to represent his methods for capturing group ideas. You can find out more about this work at his website on Coworking.

The second field is one that doesn't deserve a fancy name: It's about the art of having fun. Despite our mutual interest in collaboration technology, Bernie and I decided to focus our conversation on this. He has published some of his work on the subject at his web site called Deep Fun. More recently he has taken an interest in the challenge many people in the nonprofit world experience with having fun in their work. Check out his page on good work. Michael: Few people other than entertainers have a professional interest in fun. How long have you been doing this? What brought you to this work?

Bernie: The fun stuff started in 1969, when I was hired by the school district of Philadelphia to write a curriculum in theater for elementary school children. Instead of writing a curriculum in theater, I wound up writing a curriculum of children's games. When it was published in 1971, I found myself teaching the curriculum to teachers and was amazed to discover that adults needed these games even more than the kids did.

Michael: What was it about the games that they needed?

Bernie: They needed permission to play. Not just to play games, really, but to play, to be silly together, to have fun.

Michael: As someone who delivers and attends way more than my share of workshops, I wonder how you avoid the problem of "games facilitators play". I'm referring to the kind of games that put people on the spot and, frankly, make them uncomfortable as a participant. In other words, how do you genuinely give people permission to have fun?

Bernie: Two hard questions, Michael. The facilitators who are playing games which are forcing people to play are not facilitators but manipulators. Giving adults the permission to play involves also giving them the permission to quit. A component of my workshops is frequently what I call "quitting practice" - just so people can maintain their intention.

Michael: That's refreshing, but I can imagine that this might be hard in a teaching setting.

Bernie: Well, in a play session (in any venue) this can be accomplished by providing people with more than one game to play. So if they don't like one, they can try another.

Michael: What happens to people in their work together when they are able to have fun?

Bernie: When people enjoy their work together they are more supportive, tolerant, open, and giving. They are also less dependent on extrinsic rewards or recognition.

Michael: Is it harder to help people actually integrate fun into their work, as opposed to taking breaks for fun? The latter just seems to be a well earned breather, but one that perpetuates the distinction between work and fun.

Bernie: The issue here is to help people acknowledge the fun OF work, not to take fun breaks necessarily, but to acknowledge the fun they are having.

Michael: And that's the loop right: acknowledge the fun they are having and it will BE more fun?

Bernie: Yup. It requires a different understanding of fun, of the dynamics of enjoyment. We adults, in our grownupitude, have a great deal of difficulty using the word "fun" to describe our activities. We don't think "fun" is really a legitimate descriptor for our adult motivations.

Michael: Is it just about language? Or are people concerned about appearing dignified?

Bernie: When we engage in some voluntary effort (like helping to prepare food for the poor) and we have to attribute our work to the "Higher Good" of serving humankind, we look serious, purposeful, dedicated, when all the time the reason we keep coming back is that it's really fun. If we look like we're enjoying ourselves, we fear that we might not be taken "seriously".

Michael: Is there sometimes a basis in reality for that fear?

Bernie: I think we're also afraid that if we look like we're having fun our efforts won't get appreciated, or our willingness to help might get abused. And yes, we are often right.

Michael: So, it's systemic.

Bernie: Yup - and we need someone to give us that permission so that we can allow ourselves to revise the system.

Michael: So changes have to be done at the group level, much of the time? We can't just send one person to fun school?

Bernie: Yes. The group is the only body that can provide and sustain the necessary permission.

Michael: Can you give me a success story that might speak to my readers?

Bernie: Well, through my work with the New Games Foundation we pretty much redefined physical education, at least in elementary schools. Years ago, physical education was heavily focused on performance, on sports. The kids who were not successful were systematically weeded out. The kids who most needed the support of a good physical education were the ones who consistently failed. So, we introduced educators to open-ended "new" games - games that you don't have to win in order to enjoy. I have a good description of the rationale for this in a piece called Loving Fun, which is also available for sale as a monograph.

Michael: Have you seen a sense of fun transform how a team works together?

Bernie: Absolutely. But I'd like to emphasize that it's really the acknowledgement of the fun OF work that seems to change things most positively. On the other hand, to get to that point, you need to stop working, play around a while, and then reflect. Many of my initiatives have been part of the facilitation of creative brainstorming sessions, in a work setting. There is a section on my Deep Fun web site called Fun and Work, with many cool stories.

Michael: Let's talk about fun in the nonprofit sector. It's a place where, in my experience, people have a lot of issues with fun.

Bernie: Play and a sense of fun seem to me to be especially important to the success of volunteer-based efforts. In my experience, no organization suffers more from the "serious syndrome" than nonprofits, especially for the volunteers. People join because they want to do something that has meaning, but they get so focused on the goal, on the problem, that they consistently fail to recognize how much fun it is to be working "from the heart" for something you believe in.

Michael: How come you want to work with nonprofits?

Bernie: The essence of play is that it is a voluntary act. That's why I think I can contribute the most to the nonprofit sector.

Michael: This is a great place to finish today. Let's edit it and see what emerges.

Bernie: I await your word with joyous anticipation. This bordered on fun, don't you think?

Michael: I had great fun, Bernie. Thank you very much!

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